Benny con niño bebé Ludvig y Björn con niña bebé Emma, 1982.
Michael Odell meets Björn Ulvaeus, on the occasion of his 80th birthday, for The Times Magazine.
On his appearance at the 1974 Eurovision Song Contest, Björn tells Michael: “I remember the actual full-length mirror, and I remember making a rock-solid decision: this cannot go on. This must change immediately, because this is not what a pop star looks like. There are many myths about ABBA, but that one is true. I nearly split my trousers and something needed to change and change it did. I began running and eating more healthily that same day.”
On being married to Agnetha Fältskog, a ‘sex symbol’: “No, I don’t think I ever said I was irritated. I mean she was very… Yeah, but the reason I went on a diet wasn’t because of her. It was because pop stars were thin. And that’s what I was supposed to be. A pop star.”
Björn tells Michael that he drinks 15 to 20 cups of coffee a day. Michael says Björn looks “amazing”. Björn replies, “Thank you very much. That is nice of you. I can’t believe I will be 80. But I try to follow the advice of Clint Eastwood who, when asked how he stopped himself feeling old, said, ‘By never letting the old man in.’”
Michael says that in an interview four years ago Björn grumbled that he was “only” managing sex four times a week. Björn replies: “Oh God no, that was a joke. Move on.”
About ‘The Winner Takes It All’, Michael says he wondered why someone calling your name should sound different after you’ve broken up. Michael’s older sister told him that Björn was imagining an ex having an earth-shattering orgasm with a new lover. “Oh, well, that’s reasonable,” replies Björn. “Thank you and yes, why not? Why not indeed imagine it?” he offers, a little uncertainly. “I wrote that song very quickly while drinking whisky during my drinking days [he gave up alcohol in 2007]. I rarely wrote while intoxicated because you look at the words the next day and it’s garbage. But most of The Winner Takes It All is actually good. It’s not a personal story, but I tried to find the detail of a real human pain.”
On AI, Björn says: “AI is changing all the creative industries beyond recognition.”
Björn wonders whether he could have succeeded as a young songwriter in 2025: “I mean, I’d like to believe I’d have tried hard and broken through, but who knows? I might be an Uber driver telling you about this song me and my friends are working on called Dancing Queen that you never get to hear. In the old days, you had a couple of hits and then you had access to all the national radio and TV shows. You had a career. You have to do so much more to be heard above the noise now.”
Michael asks whether ‘legacy acts’ will continue to dominate the music scene through AI: “That might be part of it: young people today are finding music from 1970 or 2010 or now. It’s true that when we started, we didn’t have to compete with decades of other music.”
If Voyage is still playing in 100 years’ time, would it bother Björn? “No! Did Agatha Christie have a problem with The Mousetrap? [Christie’s play has run in London since 1952 and recently celebrated its 30,000th performance.] When you’re gone, you’re gone but… my kids might appreciate it.”
On ageism: “You reach 50 and people just walk past you in the street,” he says. “They don’t really see you. You don’t count. I think society wastes so much by discarding the skills and wisdom of the elderly. My father-in-law went from relevance to irrelevance from one day to the next.”
On meeting his wife, Christina Sas: “It was love at first sight, at least from my side. But immediately I had severe problems with myself and the age difference. When a man or a woman meets someone much younger and falls in love they think, ‘Am I doing the right thing?’ But in the end I just gave up. I decided, ‘It’s up to her — if she wants to live with someone older and we love each other…’ Age doesn’t come between us now — we rarely even talk about it.”
On ‘love at first sight’ in his late 70s: “Oh, well, there’s this person and there’s this attraction. You think, ‘What is this?’ And then, when you see it in the other person’s eyes… It’s spectacular. It’s fantastic. But you have to be very open, with your antennas out. You have to be adventurous and ready to take a chance.”
The night before the interview, Björn and Christina went to see Sir Elton John and Brandi Carlile perform at the London Palladium. Christina tells Michael, “Elton has a particular way of passionately hammering at the piano, which is remarkable for a man his age. You see, I’m doing it — I’m being ageist! Why shouldn’t he still play the piano as well as he always has?”
Michael notes that Björn is worth close to £250 million, but he and Christina make for a remarkably ordinary couple. Nobody recognised Björn and Christina while shopping at Waterstones (book shop). Björn says: “I don’t want to become a nouveau riche like many of the English artists. They wallow in luxury; they don’t know what to do with their money. Past a certain point, it [money] doesn’t matter… First of all, it’s freedom from the worries most people have — jobs, bills, the rent. That is so great. I can remember the moment I first felt, ‘I don’t have to worry about that any more.’ After that, it’s wonderful if you find a project that really needs financing. To be able to dream and let an idea develop and then actually do it — that’s what money is for. Like Mamma Mia! or Voyage. But these projects are not just to make money — it’s to do something worthwhile and fun.”
Michael asks Björn if ABBA had their rock’n’roll moments: “I can assure you there are no hidden ABBA scandals, no blemish on our image… There were instances when we didn’t leave hotel rooms in quite the order they were in when we came, but nothing like the Who driving a Rolls Royce into a swimming pool.”
Björn says: “I don’t like to compare us to the Beatles — to me they were three of the greatest songwriters ever who just happened to be alive in the same place at the same time. But yes, in our own way, the slim chance of us getting together still amazes me.”
Michael says Björn looks a little forlorn when saying that ABBA may have met for the last time as a quartet. That was last year when they were awarded Sweden’s Royal Order of Vasa for “very outstanding efforts in Swedish and international music life”, voted for by the public. Björn: “And that felt so good, considering the initial reaction to us was not good. It was uncool to admit liking ABBA. Sweden was going very left, very socialist in the early Seventies and ABBA was Mammon. During that time you were supposed to take a stand in your lyrics and I refused. I thought it was more interesting to explore relationships. I was uninterested in putting party politics in the lyrics. How boring!”
Björn on global politics: “I am really very worried about Europe and democracy and the rise of the autocrat.” Michael tells Björn that Vladimir Putin reportedly booked the ABBA tribute act ‘Björn Again’ for a private show at the Kremlin: “I didn’t know that. I can imagine the scene with him dancing around the Kremlin,” Björn says, laughing but appalled. “I remember during my teenage years and my early twenties, during the Cold War, I asked myself, ‘Will I live under a dictator? Will I adjust or join the resistance and risk my life?’ And I thought, ‘I would rather die than live under a dictator.’ Of course, I was a young man. But already again I’m thinking, ‘How would I react?’”
Björn on what he calls the self-censorship of liberal democracies: “It really bothers me you cannot make Monty Python’s Life of Brian in a Muslim context for fear of violence. I find it demeaning to not be able to say this or that. Free speech is in danger. And I really feel, with autocrats on the rise, even in America, Europe needs to step up and unite. I am a proud European and now it seems we are the last bastion of liberal democracy. Let’s face it: we are alone and I think we should build a European defence force.”
Björn adds: “I really wish the UK didn’t leave the EU, although I think you guys are still kind of European. And this is so important I feel I have to help. In Sweden, I made a democracy education programme for schools which will be launched in June. I want children to realise this thing that we breathe every day — freedom, respect for institutions — is at threat. Imagine the world these dictators want: you lose your job because you complain about the government. You pay taxes but they are stolen or you can’t get justice because the law has become an untrustworthy institution. We are closer to this than we know.”
Björn feels he has been very lucky in life: “And then to meet Benny and for us to meet these incredible ladies with the perfect voices.”
Michael explains that Björn will fly to Mallorca with 20 members of his extended family to mark his big birthday. But on the actual day itself he has no special plans: “No, no party with speeches. I don’t like that. I find it very difficult to sit and listen to people praising you. I’m too shy for that.”
On his ‘ABBAtar’: “I would like to speak to the man I was at that age and tell him the things he worried about were not worth worrying about,” he says. “I was so insecure — what a waste of time! Relationships with other humans are the only thing that really matter.”
And what would the ABBAtar would say to Björn? “Hey, old man,” he says, laughing, “how come you get to sit at home while I have to do all the work?”
